Episode 11 : Special Guest Nicholas Vince

Mr. Vince Facebook Picture

Jose Leitao and Ryan Danhauser interview Nicholas Vince, who played the Chatterer Cenobite in Hellraiser, Hellbound: Hellraiser II, and Kinski in Clive Barker’s Nightbreed.  He was also a writer for Marvel’s Nightbreed and Hellraiser comics in the 90s, and he contributed for several Magazines like Fear, Skeleton Crew and Crisis, writing several beautiful short stories and doing a series of interviews titled “The Lugagge in the Crypt” with several Artists and writers. He also wrote the comic series “Warheads” and “Mortigan Goth“. In 2009 his story Devil’s Design was published in the Hellbound Hearts anthology.
Watch out for an upcoming book by Mr. Vince called “WHAT MONSTERS DO”, still being written. We can’t wait for it to come out!
We thank him immensely for this opportunity to chat with him a little while and we hope to do so again in a future opportunity to promote his upcoming projects.

Show Notes : Click here to

Kinski photo from Nighbreed Chronicles

1. Nicko Vince as Kinski. From The Nightbreed Chronicles :‎”It was Saint-Victor’s Dissolution (a cure for the psychosis of appearance) that transformed Leon Kinski from Natural to Breed. In pursuit of a woman who rejected his looks, Kinski used Saint-Victor’s compound, which – so rumour went – allowed the user to reconfigure his features as imagination willed. In the fugue state the drug induced, however, he wandered out to gaze at the crescent moon, and it was that image his softening features took as inspiration. He attempted suicide by throwing himself into the Seine. He claims he drowned there, and rose to the surface the following night, when the moon rose. This is most likely nonsense. The Seine simply washed him up alive. He was thereafter cleansed of all desire, except for the moon, in the faces of which, he will say, he can see al his lusts made chilly perfection.” – Photo by Murray Close.

2. Photos posted by Nicholas Vince on his Facebook Timeline after our interview:

Barbie Wilde and Nicholas Vince Modeling for Artist John Bolton for the comic book story “Demons to Some, Angels to Others”, 1991.

Comic Art by Artist John Bolton Story: Demons to Some, Angels to Others, Clive Barker’s Hellraiser #7, 1991- by Nicholas Vince, John Bolton & James Novak.

3. Nicholas Vince magazine article listing at the Locus Mag Index

4. Another John Bolton artwork page from the above story in my collection. (José L.)

“Demons to Some…” Hellraiser # 7, Nicholas Vince, John Bolton and James Novak.

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What Monsters Do: Nicholas Vince

 

More from Crystal Raen at www.BringBackNightbreed.blogspot.com

Interview Transcript Below

DANHAUSER: Hi and welcome again to the Clive Barker podcast. This is episode 11. With me today is Jose Leitao. I’m Ryan Danhauser and we have a special guest, Nicholas Burman Vince.
VINCE: Hi Guys.
LEITAO: Nicholas Vince is a cinema actor and writer. He played the Chattering Cenobite in Hellraiser and II. You might recognize him as the moon-shaped character in Nightbreed (Kinski).  He’s also written several short stories; including one for the anthology Hellbound Hearts and it’s our pleasure to have you today as our guest. So, welcome!
VINCE: Thank you very much indeed.
LEITAO: You attended the Mountview Theater Academy, is that correct?
VINCE: We always used to call it Mountview Theater School rather than Academy, I think. I think its official title in those days was the Mountview Theater School, because we always used to talk about going to drama school rather than the academy. But that is me being purely pedantic and probably irrelevant.
LEITAO: You’ve had the little theater bug from a very tender age, is that correct?
VINCE: Yes. I was, doing amateur dramatics since I was around about 11, 12 years old. I remember, always being really interested in drama –in fact earlier than that. I remember even when I was at nursery school, the earliest taste of doing improvisation I had, I would have been about six years old, and… do you guys know the rhyme Three Blind Mice?
LEITAO: Yes.
VINCE: You’ve heard of Three Blind Mice… I remember we were all acting this out and I got into the character of this mouse. He had his cheese and his hole and stuff, and acting it out in my head and just being really taken with this idea that if you had a character you could then play with this and imagine what it was really like to be that character. And then like so many people… it was an English teacher who really encouraged me —  a lady called Mary Solomon when I was around about 11 years old  to get involved in the local drama society in Horsham in Sussex where I grew up. I remember playing the young Pip in Dickens’ Great Expectations in a Dickensian evening and playing all the young characters and then just stayed with that drama society. So… Drama school basically.
LEITAO: I see. Am I correct in saying that you met Simon Banford at this school?
VINCE: Yes, Simon and I were in the same year at drama school. And as Simon says, he was a Punk rocker, and I remember… at the start of the second year, we enrolled in the theater at the school and Simon was wearing a hat and the registrar just insisted that he took [it off] and he stood up and took his hat off just to see what color hair he had [laughs]. Bright pink… I think it was bright pink from my memory, I can just clearly remember this. So yeah, they thought he was a Punk.
LEITAO: Very well. And it was through Simon that you met Clive Barker, right?
VINCE: Yes. It was at a local party and Clive was there and we got to chatting and he asked me to come and model for him, which I did and we just became very good friends through that. I didn’t join the Dog Company, so I never acted with Simon or Clive or the Dog Company. It was mostly modeling I did for Clive.
LEITAO: At that time you did modeling for a lot of artists I personally adore like John Bolton, and Dave McKean, is that correct?
VINCE: That’s correct, yes. That actually came a lot later. I did modeling for Clive. You noted in one of your questions, is it true that parts of my body appear on Clive’s illustrations for the Books of blood? Yes, they do. In fact on the volume one of the Books of Bloods, I’m there holding up a photograph of what is obviously Clive, with a knife stuck in my head. I can’t remember which volume it is. I swear, that’s definitely my slightly broken twisted nose and my face with my head peeled backwards, needles coming in to the top of my head. I did that modeling. But the modeling for the other guys, that actually didn’t come until much later, that came after Nightbreed, where I’d met Neil Gaiman and John Bolton. And so on.
LEITAO: How did you find yourself playing the Chatterer cenobite?
VINCE: Oh, this is the classic story of Clive got this movie together which— I think I was listening to Simon’s interview you did the other day, Simon covered pretty much the story: Clive wasn’t happy with what had been done with Rawhead Rex and suddenly decided that the next movie he was going to write it— and not only write it, but direct it as well— and he basically got his mates together, to play the monsters, for which we’re all incredibly grateful. I got a phone call (where I was living down in Sussex with my parents at the time) from Clive saying, “would you like to be in the movie? There may be some makeup involved”. [Laughter] Actually, I think rather than maybe the exact line was “there’s a little makeup involved”. I just very calmly said, “Yes, of course I’ll have to consult with my agent.” I can’t believe I said that. But basically,  just said yes, of course. I’d love to do the movie.
DANHAUSER: Simon had said that the two of you were blind during the [filming]?
VINCE:Yes, absolutely! The first time I met Bob Keen and went to Image Animation, I remember they were at Elstree rather than Pinewood… I went across there and met Bob. The guy who met me at the door introduced me [to Bob] “this is Nick Vince” and Bob just warmly shook me by the hand. He said: “Oh, you’re the poor bastard!” [General laughter] “You’re not going to be able to see much.” I remember him putting his fist up on the bridge of my nose and saying “You’ll probably be able to see that much.” And he lied because when they actually got the mask on me, I literally just had a little pin hole. I couldn’t see anything out of the right eye and there was a little pin hole, which if I looked down, I could see that. The joke about “poor bastard” is that became my nickname [Laughter] on the set. And I remember each day you get a callsheets when you’re doing a movie, which states the name of the characters that were going to be filmed the following day. And I remember there was one callsheet which said “Chattering Cenobite” and then on the next line down it said “poor bastard” [Laughter] and they’d obviously got really confused as to how many actors there were and how many parts there were. [laughs]
LEITAO: So they would just slide that mask on your face and put your dentures?
VINCE: Yes. In terms of costume and makeup, I think Simon and I were luckier than Doug [Bradley] and Grace Kirby, because actually nothing was really stuck to my face. The dentures… the second set of dentures actually, because when they’d done the original design, the dentures had pointed teeth.
DANHAUSER and LEITAO:  [Simultaneously] Ooh!
VINCE: Almost as if there was some sort of fish-like thing going on. But after we’d done the makeup test, the original makeup, Clive decided he didn’t like it… He’d lost too much humanity. Therefore, we went to the teeth, which are a replica of my teeth because they did the whole thing with the alginate in the roof of the mouth and took a mold of my teeth. I had to do that anyway to make the dentures so that I could wear the plate, because the dentures sat outside my face.
DANHAUSER: Right!
LEITAO: So that pointy teeth thing actually makes a lot of sense that they would go with the more human teeth. This leads me to my next question which is, I’ve heard that the Chatterer was supposed to be a more animalistic creature of lesser standing than the cenobites, almost like a family dog, correct?
VINCE: Yes. I think Clive and I originally talked about the part, he kind of describes it as being a lot more athletic, a lot more aggressive… And the idea was that when you first see him in fact, that he would be crouching down and that he would leap at Kirsty and you might get more of a shock moment there… But when he saw me in the leather costume, when I knelt down the —You know guys, if you’re wearing trousers, you can try this at home [laugh]— when you kneel down, you get these extra wings of flesh at the kneecaps. It all bunches up at the kneecaps and he [Clive] said, you know, that just kind of ruined the illusion that the leather didn’t somehow meld into the skin. And obviously the fact that I couldn’t actually see where I was going anyway in terms of being able to leap forward, meant we had to rethink that.
LEITAO: Still, ultimately I guess the way the Chatterer imposed such a threatening presence on Kirsty when he first appears and his quiet stance makes it work as a very imposing presence! Then he does that strange thing where he grabs her, he sticks his fingers into her mouth almost as a way of immobilizing her or something.

VINCE: Yes! And I have to say you know, this is where Ashley as an actress just completely sells that scene because the last thing you’re going to do is to open your mouth. It’s a kind of unnatural reaction that she has. You’d think the moment she sees what’s about to happen that she might clam up shut [laughs] but she sells it! She’s so terrified, so completely bewildered by what’s going on. She becomes very malleable. Obviously, terror can do that. So hats off to her for being able to sell that scene so beautifully.
LEITAO: In the NECA figurine box the blurb for the Chatterer cenobite actually reads that: “He’s Hell’s Second Lieutenant to Pinhead, the angel of suffering. Child of misery, sought redemption from the lament configuration and only found the indulgence of pain. His solitude and misery forever accompanied by the echoes of the sound of his chattering teeth.” That’s just wonderful. In all the “Favorite Cenobite” polls that I’ve seen, Chatterer always comes a close second to Pinhead. I guess there is something that really calls to people when it comes to this particular cenobite, the “faceless killer” from our nightmares, perhaps?
VINCE: He’s the Penis Dentatus as well. [Laughs] There’s something incredibly phallic about him. The effect that he has, I think particularly in women, is quite extraordinary. I remember after the movie had come out, when I was writing comics— and this must’ve been a year or so after the movie had come out— I remember being in a pub in Brixton with a whole load of mates and one of my mates, Ed; his girlfriend was coming to join him— I’d not met her— she came up to the table and he introduced us “This is Nick, he played the Chattering Cenobite in Hellraiser.” And she just looked at me and turned tail and ran! [General laughter].
LEITAO: That’s quite a response!
VINCE: Yeah! She came back about 20 minutes later I remember and we did eventually become really good friends after she could bring herself to speak to me. There is something about that image. He’s blind. He’s really obviously blind and yet can still move and it’s just very, very threatening.
DANHAUSER: Yeah.
LEITAO: I think that because he’s faceless, we can apply any identity behind his scarred face and his silence can mean a thousand different things… As well as the unsettling sound of the teeth. Which reminds us of being cold or afraid, which puts us in a state of mind where we feel vulnerable!
VINCE: Absolutely. And you know I do remember I practiced in front of the bathroom mirror to get the chattering right. Once we’ve worked out this was the only thing I was going to be able to do. I wasn’t allowed to stick my tongue out because that was Simon’s thing, because they’d taken his lines away from him. So he got to stick his tongue out and rub his tongue over his lips.
LEITAO: Fingering his solar plexus Chakra!
VINCE: Fiddling with his stomach, yeah. I think I’ve said this before, I believe that the sound that you hear of the chattering teeth is me doing this. I don’t know if they [Image] did it… If they did, that’d be lovely to find out one day But I remember they did record me because of course what you’re listening to is the sound of me moving my jaw and chattering the plastic teeth and the part of the mask. A bit like a pair of castanets. But it is definitely me doing the jaw movement.

LEITAO: Then after we moved on from Hellraiser to Bloodline, the fourth Hellraiser, there is actually a chattering dog. The concept of the cenobite family dog actually became true. They actually did make him a dog. So that’s something that came full circle there.
VINCE: Yes.
LEITAO: It was interesting. So in [Hellbound] Hellraiser II, Chatterer has this off-camera makeover which we never got to see, where he actually got eyes.
VINCE: Yes!
LEITAO: I’m sure that was a welcome evolution of the makeup for you.
VINCE:  [Laughs] Oh boy was it! Absolutely. It’s one of those things … doing the first movie, I’m sure you guys have heard of this concept of sensory deprivation as a way of torturing people where you put a bag over their heads and play them white noise, in the dark and make them stand still for long periods. That’s pretty much playing the chattering cenobite really, because there was about half an inch of foam rubber and if you put your hands over your ears, you get that rushing sound, that is white noise and I remember during the first movie, we were supposed to be filming the death sequence of the Chattering cenobite and for two days they had me in makeup for eight hours and didn’t film me.
DANHAUSER: Oh..
VINCE: Yeah. Not a Happy Bunny. Well, happy when I got the check! But at the time, It really was a tough experience doing that. And Simon’s explained, that when we were in makeup that we couldn’t see, we couldn’t take direction and they were really supportive of us eventually. But if they wanted to leave me in the makeup all day, then I had to have somebody with me at all times because I couldn’t do anything for myself.
LEITAO: Like a handler?
VINCE: Yes, a handler. I remember once, on the first movie when we were filming over in Cricklewood —sorry, the studio was in Cricklewood, the location for the house was in Dollis Hill [Lane]— when we were in the house. Being in makeup and there was a double bed, so I laid down on the double bed on one side and my handler Rosemary Sylvester-Fisher who made the costumes, Jane Wildgoose designed them but Rosemary actually made the costumes, we both just laid down on the bed and fell asleep. And of course Rosemary was the first person to wake up and just turned over and found herself in bed with… Chatterer! [General laughter] The scream stopped the shooting.
LEITAO: Oh, good heavens!
VINCE: It’s not a nice experience! [Laughter]
LEITAO: Did you ever get any explanation from either Tony Randel or Clive Barker, Pete Atkins, why the Chattering Cenobite would change his looks halfway through the movie?
VINCE: It really was me kicking up such a fuss! [Laughs] Gosh, they were so good to me. That was really, really cool of them. I mean, having said that, I think there are other reasons… You’d think they could have just cast somebody else who was less of a whinger.. But I think that Tony’s idea was that by revealing the eyes, we could get over this thing that was not being able to see (obviously) and therefore make him more dynamic. When you were talking to Simon [Bamford], he referred to the famous scene of Barbie [Wilde] and Doug [Bradley] in the surgeon’s outfits? There was a scene with Chatterer chasing Channard or somebody, I can’t remember who on earth it was he was chasing, I’ve not read the script recently…
LEITAO: Tiffany and Kirsty I think. Right?
VINCE: Yeah. Down the corridor and you’ve got the Chatterer running after them.
LEITAO: Trying to catch them at an elevator! There is actually a scene in a European trailer, where you see the Chatterer doing kind of a jump-scare as an elevator opens, which was never in the movie. That was one of the scenes that they cut from the script. Where Chatterer would lunge at them coming out of the elevator.

VINCE: Yeah, and It’s Chatterer with the eyes in that sequence I believe. So as I say, partly me whinging I would like to think had something to do with it, but a lot more to do with the fact that you could make him a little more dynamic, aggressive, active character.
DANHAUSER: Had they explained to you the backstory of how a little kid had opened the puzzle box or become a cenobite?
VINCE: No, which is why I wrote “Look, See” as my little scream: “What do you mean, I can’t be in a movie? What do you mean, I can’t have my face in a movie?”
DANHAUSER: Yeah, after all that time being stuck in the costume.
VINCE: Yeah. Simon and I were gutted and Barbie. It was like: “Nooo, we want to be in the movie…” [Laughs] No, not at all. But I think it’s a nice conceit and I think it’s a nice idea, because kids— I think it’s Pete [Atkins] playing with the idea of kids and innocence?
LEITAO: I always preferred after Chatterer’s death scene where we see him turn into the body of a teenager, it always felt strangely out of place for me, that a child would be able to tap into the secrets of the order of the Gash and become a Cenobite. I much prefer the cold, scornful green-eyed bastard that you created in that story. [Nicholas Laughs].
DANHAUSER: He’s a lot less sympathetic.
VINCE: Yes!
LEITAO: Well… I kind of like the guy! [Laughs] which leads me to the next question, which is, so after Hellbound, you published your “Look, See” story in Fear magazine. So was this you claiming the character as your own, staking your claim to his origins?
VINCE: To be honest, it was written, I think, as a joke apart from everything else. Oh gosh, Gilbert… I can’t remember the gentleman’s first name, the Editor of Fear magazine [John Gilbert]. But I remember being invited in to the editor, because by that stage I was beginning to talk to people about writing and also doing interviews and so on. And doing other stuff apart from the acting, in terms of writing. And this was just kind of me… It must’ve come up in conversation with a: “Fine. Yeah, I’ll have a go. I’ll write this.” I must’ve asked Clive’s permission, I wouldn’t have done it without, he must’ve said it was cool to do it. I think it is very interesting that Chatterer would come back twice in the later movies of course. Cause there’s one where you see a semi-naked half torso coming up the stairs and… can you remember which move is it? Which one is it?
LEITAO: Hellraiser: Inferno the fifth one, yes.
VINCE: Fifth or sixth?
DANHAUSER: That’s the fifth.
VINCE: It’s the fifth.
DANHAUSER: Yeah, the one with Craig Scheffer.
VINCE: Yes! The one with Craig Scheffer again! [from Nightbreed] Yes! And I have to say, I find that sequence very scary. There is that thing… you know, it’s him [Torso] doing that thing [with] the arms walking up the stairs and there’s the sound… something really relentless. The thing about Chatterer is that he is relentless and he’s just not going to be stopped by anything.
DANHAUSER: That kind of reminds me of that scene from The Exorcist, that deleted scene of Regan walking down the stairs, on her hands and feet you know, doing a back bridge?
VINCE: Oh, I’ve not seen it. I’ve heard of it. Now I’ve got the image in my mind. Yeah. That’s going to be horrible.

DANHAUSER: Yeah. Like a spider.

VINCE: Yeah. Yeah.
LEITAO: It’s the only cenobite apart from Pinhead that has its own series of busts and everything. I don’t think there was a bust of the Butterball cenobite or Barbie’s cenobite, but there are definitely big, normal scale size busts of the Chattering Cenobite. So that’s just a testament to how popular it is.
VINCE: Oh, yes! And at the office where I worked until recently, last year at Halloween, some of the lads that I worked with had discovered that there was the Chatterer mask at the local costume store. I’m very pleased and also have to say I’m very pleased on behalf of Nigel Booth, the guy who actually created and did the actual sculpting of the Chatterer mask.
LEITAO: I’m going to move over to 1989 when you got the part of Kinski in Nightbreed —back to work with a lot of people who you had already worked with, right?
VINCE: Yes. And of course meeting them for the first time. You know, you remember this… the Nosferatu movie… and this thing about the… oh crumbs…
LEITAO: Shadow of the Vampire movie?
VINCE: The Shadow of the Vampire! Thank you. You have the whole idea that you’ve cast a real vampire to play the monster, because nobody ever sees the monster out of makeup. Well, this was true with myself, Simon and others because of course we were there so early in the morning the people on set, the technicians, the sound guys, Robin Vidgeon, didn’t really get to see us out of makeup. They only ever really saw us on set and I remember meeting the sound guy on Nightbreed and he’s introducing himself. I said: “Yeah, I know who you are. We’ve made two movies together.” [Laughs]— Because he’d just never seen me out of makeup.
LEITAO: Exactly! And when he saw the movie he just saw a little guy rolling around in the torture pillar!
VINCE: Yeah.
LEITAO: And none of you cenobites got to actually— apart from Doug and Grace Kirby, Barbie while you guys, uh, they hired other people to play the human counterparts.
VINCE: Precisely. So yeah, completely understandable. Then I got the joy of five hours of makeup before I could get on set. The car came at three o’clock in the morning It was an hour’s drive from south London where I lived out to Pinewood, in makeup chair at four o’clock in the morning.
DANHAUSER: So there was a lot of makeup for Kinski?
VINCE: Yeah, and this is down to Neil Gorton, who’s behind Millennium FX and he’s now doing the doctor and has done the Doctor Who monsters to incredible effect. He is a very talented man. I got to experience what it was like to get up that early in the morning… what Doug had gone through.
DANHAUSER: Anne Bobby had said that you had some extra time to go out and, and do fun stuff with her.
VINCE: Yeah. She reminded me of this the other day. I used to take the guys to a bar called Madam Jojo’s. A great thing about the bar was this was a transvestite bar. I had some friends who used to work there. It was a great nightclub. The nightclub is still there in the west end. It’s not the same. I mean, the days we’re talking about in the late 1980’s, Madam Jojo’s was run by Madam Jojo. It really did feel like being in cabaret, the film cabaret. Part of the reason it was such a great place to go and hang out was because the floor show — a couple of shows a night — they would do torch songs. They’d do really funny stuff and so you kind of got the whole gamut. In America, in drag clubs, there is a tradition that you mine to the song. But in the United Kingdom and Jojo’s, these were performers.
LEITAO: they actually sang?
VINCE: They actually sang, they performed, they danced, (on a really small stage), kicked their legs up behind their ears… Very talented people. Just, great, great guys, really interesting people. 
LEITAO: Sounds like an amazing place to go out. I used to go to this cabaret called cabaret Maxine, which was in Lisbon. That was a pretty wonderful place to go. Old style decoration, wonderful performers. It was just a great environment to spend an evening.
VINCE: I just remembered that’s where I dance with the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. I’ll tell you about the story. They were friends of Barbie’s, it was a couple of actors who’d come over, I think, for their first makeup tests. I just remember being on the disco dance floor with these guys. Hey, I danced with the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.
LEITAO: So, going back to Kinski…
VINCE: Oh yes. Where we started, Yes?

LEITAO: He’s also a very important player in the comic book, which we will get to shortly. I just have to say that I love the backstory that appears in the Nightbreed Chronicles (written by Clive Barker) which is about a man whose heart was scorned by the woman he loved because of his looks. And he takes a Saint Victor’s compound, a potion to change his appearance, but in his feverish fugue he gazes at the moon and his features becoming soft, drawn inspiration from the moon crescent to turn him into a new man even as he throws himself to the Seine. I always had this idea that this, this backstory involved Kinski in another time, like several decades back.
DANHAUSER: Yeah. That was in the comic book.
LEITAO: Oh yeah. Right. That’s where I get it from. I’ve read the comic. I have the whole 25 issues actually. Read 21 to 25 last night because I was getting ready for the interview. I was rereading the issues that you wrote. I love the whole thing you did with the expansion of the story of the Nightbreed in the comics when you took over on number 21. You have this whole story about them starting their first city in ancient Egypt. So was it you that came up with that idea of these seven saviors, the actual seven distinct figures?
VINCE: Now that’s very interesting. I don’t know and I can’t remember. I’m not sure if I picked this up from Cabal or if it’s a throwaway line in the movie? I’ll need to go back and re-read them obviously. I’m not sure off the top of my head. I remember writing it, obviously, but I honestly can’t give you an answer. What I can tell you is a bit about why Kinski looks like the moon and that’s because the original makeup didn’t work because originally in the book, he’s the guy with two faces. I can’t remember the name of the character now.
DANHAUSER: Otis and Clay, yeah.
VINCE: Otis and Clay. And Clive decided that the makeup was great, but just wouldn’t work for close-ups and dialogue. That was going to be the original. And then he came away, and then the next I knew was that he was going to have this crescent moon face. I remember the producer or somebody, ’cause I came across him the other day, you know the Mac Tonight character?
DANHAUSER: Yes. Yeah, from McDonald’s.
VINCE: It’s a kind of homage to Kinski’s look. A great, as usual, actor and also just grateful to be in movie. It is a much stronger image than Otis and Clay, I think.
LEITAO: Otis and Clay, unfortunately, he shows up just a few seconds of the film. I don’t know if he appears a little longer in the Cabal Cut. Have you seen it, Ryan?
DANHAUSER: The final fight scene in Midian is really long. But a lot of the footage is so muddy that it’s hard to see. It’s hard to make out exactly who you’re looking at sometimes.
LEITAO: These issues of Nightbreed (21 to 25 when it was canceled, unfortunately…) I noticed that you focused a lot more on Cabal and his relationship with Shuna Sassi, right. It’s been a while, so I don’t know if you recall this, but there is a closeness between Cabal and Shuna Sassi where you’re trying to create some kind of tension here between the two or was it just unintentional?
VINCE: It came from the final cut of the movie that we saw in Nightbreed. There’s a definite connection there between Shuna Sassi. I mean, she’s just this wonderfully erotic being. When I took over the Nightbreed comic, when I spoke to Clive about it, we knocked ideas about. What he had said was he really liked the idea of going back to the characters that we’d had at the end of the movie and what had happened to them after they were in that barn. And where were they going, and where would new Midian be? And so on. As a writer, you’re always looking for conflicts. You’re always looking for tension to give it a bit of drama. It just kind of felt natural. If you’ve got such a strong presence in the movie, then it was fun to play with.

LEITAO: They dreamt about each other in the movie, so that’s referred.
DANHAUSER: Right, and it wasn’t really fleshed out in the theatrical cut of the movie.
LEITAO: No, not at all.
VINCE: That’s right.
LEITAO: Have you seen the Cabal Cut yet?
VINCE: (No, I’m due to go to Russell Cherrington and stay with Russell so I can actually have a look at this in a couple of weeks.
DANHAUSER: It’s incredible,

VINCE: I’m really pleased about the buzz that this is getting on Facebook and they Occupy Midian campaign. We all felt it at the time. I’ve said this in print. The script that I read had this wonderful, evocative story about monsters, and who are the real monsters? So to see something much closer to Clive’s original vision… I’m really excited about this whole idea.
LEITAO: After Nightbreed… Well before that, Ryan, do you have any more questions about Nightbreed that you’d like to ask?
DANHAUSER: Oh, there was one, I guess sort of a weird, kind of a mythological thing with Nightbreed that, having written the comics and stuff, I’d always wondered. When Kinski says, “If we eat him, we break the law.” And it seems like there are so many Nightbreed like Kinski that were people that became kind of freaks but they weren’t like some kind of a vampire. And I always wondered what is it about joining Midian that makes them want to eat people?
VINCE: Oh, that’s interesting. I can’t remember if it was explored in the book. I think it’s kind of alluded to in the movie where Decker the psychiatrist meets the old man.
DANHAUSER: And he wanted to be one of them.
VINCE: Yeah. And I think the reason that they’re in Midian, and the reason you have the law is if you have a group of people or creatures living there, the reason they’ve gone to somewhere like Midian is because they don’t want to bring attention to themselves. And if they’re regularly going out and eating the local populace, they’re going to bring attention to themselves. So I always assumed that the reason why you have the law is that… I can’t remember the actual law… Is it “If we eat him we break the law”?.
DANHAUSER: Yeah. And he could just be trying to be sympathetic to Peloquin.
LEITAO: I guess so. I always thought that the answer to that question that you did, Ryan, was that awakening to the Nightbreed brings out the beast in us and the beast is all our appetites and all our unbridled desires. I think some of us might have had moments in our lives where we desire someone so badly, we actually want to bite them. I don’t mean cannibalize, but…
DANHAUSER: I know what you mean. Like this weird feeling like you want to take them in.
LEITAO: Exactly. So maybe to some extent those appetites become so much more enhanced when you were in Nightbreed that you might lose control. I don’t know. It’s just my take on it.
DANHAUSER: Kinski is a lot more up on the law than Peloquin.
VINCE: And I think that’s why those two characters work together and why they hang around together. It’s an interesting friendship they’ve got — the dynamic between those two. Kinski is obviously the sidekick of Peloquin, there’s no two ways about it, but he is more thinking. Peloquin is all instinct and animalism, and the transformative monster. Kinski has transformed and is stuck and he is a human who’s had to find somewhere where he will be accepted. Unlike Peloquin he has become, if you like, one of the elders of the tribe. He’s there helping Baphomet. He’s invested in Midian and protecting the tribe because he has to do that in order to survive. Whereas Peloquin would choose to go out and slaughter people and resents the fact that he’s trapped. Whereas Kinski sees Midian as protection, Peloquin obviously feels a bit closer to being imprisoned.
LEITAO: In fact in the comic books, the issues that I read that you wrote, Kinski actually goes as far as to challenge Peloquin to a duel to prevent him from eating human meat 

DANHAUSER: Knowing that he’s going to lose. 

LEITAO: Yes, but ultimately Peloquin comes to his senses. What you mentioned is really interesting: In the part we see in the movie where they are gathering the pieces of Baphomet, Kinski, one of the breed that’s actually present there wrapping up the savior, the Baptizer of Midian. So indeed, he seems to be one of the inner circle breed in the movie too.
VINCE: Yeah, absolutely.
DANHAUSER: And you get kind of a feeling that that Kinski becomes the new Lylesberg or will become the new Lylesberg later on.
VINCE: Yeah. I think that’s entirely possible.
LEITAO: I wish we could go back and have the movie come out as it should be and have another sequel. That would have been wonderful.
VINCE: …and I always wanted there to be little Kinski figurines. I always thought, you know, in the same way there are Chatterer figurines…
DANHAUSER: Nightbreed toys would have been so cool.
LEITAO: There are hellraiser ones. I am looking at the 3000 limited edition chatterer in my office right now which actually I got from a friend of mine called Nathan. So, if there’s Hellraiser toys, who knows? Maybe if Morgan Creek would actually just come out and release the Cabal Cut. There could be merchandising. Just a thought… I hope you’re listening Morgan Creek!
VINCE: Absolutely. Absolutely.
LEITAO: After 1990 and 1991, you turn more to writing, right? like writing for magazines, like Skeleton Crew, where you did a wonderful series of interviews with a lot of fascinating people. Like Dave McKean, Neil Gaiman, Ramsey Campbell. How did that come about?
VINCE: The modeling and the writing and the song came about from one of these things… Ryan,. I’m right in thinking you’ve seen the Cabal Cut, right?
DANHAUSER: Yes.
VINCE: That includes the nightclub scene. Is that right?
DANHAUSER: It does. Yeah.
VINCE: …where Lori sings “Johnny Get Angry”. In the crowd are people like John Bolton, Neil Gaiman and I don’t know if Stephen King was there.
DANHAUSER: I was looking for them and Anne Bobby was looking for them in the Cabal Cut, but we couldn’t find them. And it may be just that the shots that made it into the cut didn’t include them. 
VINCE: But basically, I mean it was a day’s filming and I know that’s where I met John Bolton.
DANHAUSER: And one of them was wearing a cowboy hat, right?. Was that really Neil Gaiman wearing a cowboy hat?.
VINCE: Right. You’re really asking me to remember now.
LEITAO: That was also Pete Atkins…
DANHAUSER: Oh, Maybe it was Pete Atkins.
LEITAO: No, I’m just saying that he was also in that scene, I think.
VINCE: I think Pete was there, I think we all got in there if we could, ’cause we thought it was our only chancy thing on screen with just our faces. I have a huge suspicion I overacted in the crowd. The producer said ”you just can’t keep still, can you?” and I thought, ‘Oh that means I’m gonna get cut out.’ Because I remember just looking up on the stage adoringly at Anne Bobby. That’s when I met those guys. I think by that stage I had done three movies and certainly by the time we got to doing the premiere of Nightbreed I remember having this feeling ‘I’ve done this acting stuff, now I need to do other things. I need to write. I need to explore writing and speaking my own voice rather than speaking the words of other people.’ The Luggage in the Crypt was based on the idea of a radio four program we have over here called desert island discs. I don’t know if you guys have heard of it; they ask people “What eight records would you take to a desert island? to keep you going.” And the idea of the The Luggage in the Crypt is very much along those lines and it was a subtle way of asking people where do you get your ideas from? What’s inspired you over the years? which I think made it into a really interesting series.
LEITAO: I read the interview with Dave McKean because it was online and I could find it last night and it was really interesting. The questions that you came up with were fascinating questions like, do you believe in the afterlife? That kind of stuff.
VINCE: Yeah, this was the idea. I could ask them the big questions and they responded to very, very well. I mean, this is a part of what I loved about that time of my life. I met all these incredibly cool people and I thought I’m just going to hang around with them and got on very well. So, they were really honest with me when I was asking this stuff.
LEITAO: You also wrote for Crisis Magazine in October of 1990 this beautiful story called “Suddenly, Last Week” it was illustrated by Paul Johnson, with a story about love, discrimination and ultimately acceptance of oneself and pink, fluffy raccoons.
VINCE: Small pink, fluffy raccoons!.
LEITAO: I just thought this was brilliant. The whole concept of the story was just delightful, you know, just changing one minor thing shows the complete ridiculousness of prejudice. It’s just amazing.
VINCE: Thank you so much, It’s so nice of you guys. I have not seen that for a while. I’ve got prints out of it from the original magazine. I’ve got it upstairs in my archive. It was so nice to see it online, as it was written by looking at it on the IPAD, because the colours really glow…
LEITAO: The pink really comes out.
VINCE: (Laughter)
LEITAO: It’s just such a nice little story. I mean, and just like four or five pages, it’s just a complete manual of how to deal with prejudice and how to disarm it. It’s just amazing.
VINCE: Thank you. I’m really pleased. It was the writing of that comic which led me into writing a series of Warheads comics. The editor in chief of Marvel UK at the time, Paul Neary, invited me to do my own series of comics called Warheads. I remember him saying at the time if I could write “Suddenly Last Week” then I could write anything.

LEITAO: And you also did a series called Mortigan Goth, right?
VINCE: Yes, a limited edition series.
LEITAO: I still have to find this one, so I could not read it for the interview, but I’m going to chase it down.
DANHAUSER: I’m taking notes on these.
VINCE: It’s a four-part series. I’m not happy with the fourth part. I love the first three parts of that four-part series.
DANHAUSER: That kind of reminds me too with the Nightbreed comic, was it so frustrating trying to fit all of those stories that you had planned out into the last issue?
VINCE: (Laughter) Yeah. Yeah. But that’s the way the cookie crumbles. It was a challenge. It was interesting…
LEITAO: You put them in as like fake newspaper articles, right?
VINCE: Yeah. like so much in art…you have to work within the limitations that you’ve given.
DANHAUSER: That’s a clever way to do it. I mean, otherwise you wouldn’t have been able to do even mention them at all.
VINCE: Just wanted to make sure that people felt that we had completed the story arc and that was important.
LEITAO: Hey, who knows? If there are new Hellraiser comics coming out right now, who knows if the Cabal Cut coming out might open the door to a new, series of Nightbreed. That would be wonderful.

VINCE: Yeah, absolutely.

LEITAO: Going into the last question that I have for you… Can you tell us something about the 2010, The Hairy Hands animation project that you were involved with.
VINCE: Yeah, I mean, I was involved with it very, very briefly and I’ve only got about two or three lines, which I can’t really talk to you about because they appear at the end of the movie. (Laughter) I was asked to do that and very pleased to, and it was really interesting. Ashley, I remember him coming around to the house to get the interview. This is Ashley Thorpe, the director and animator. It’s a really nice short movie based on an English legend “Fogtown.” 
LEITAO: Oh, really?
VINCE: Yeah, I’m sure you can download it online. And he’s going to do some other stuff as well.
DANHAUSER: I’ll look for that.
LEITAO: I’ve seen the trailer last night on Youtube. There was a trailer from the actual page, the production company that did that. I saw that it was really, really interesting voiced by Doug Bradley, I think.
VINCE: Yes, both Doug and I got involved in that.
LEITAO: …Listening to Doug Bradley narrate something is always a pleasure, like “Spine Chillers,” reading Lovecraft stories… that’s just wonderful listening to…
VINCE: I’ve got some of the CDs and I remember thinking,’ It’s nice to have Doug’s voice in the car.’
LEITAO: Ryan, do you have any questions that you’d like to ask from the listeners?
DANHAUSER: Well, one thing from me first: there’s a Hellraiser anniversary (25th anniversary reunion) in New Jersey at a Monstermania Con and it looks like you’ll be there with Clive Barker, Doug Bradley, Simon Bamford… So how did that come about?
VINCE: Like all these things come about, somebody asked me. We did Monstermania a couple of years ago, two or three if not longer, and had a really, really good time there, I remember. I’m really looking forward to it. Yeah. So, I’m looking forward to that later in the year.
DANHAUSER: Going to listener comments, a lot of these were covered during our talk here: David wanted to know if you were in contact with Clive during the writing of the comics, the Nightbreed comics.
VINCE: Yeah, I think I mentioned. But we discussed some of the ideas. Less so when we did the collection of short stories, Hellbound Hearts.
LEITAO: I know you’ve ruined one Hellraiser take once for laughing too loudly next to the set when they were recording.
VINCE: Yeah (Laughter). The truth of the story is actually that the concept of this story in “Hellbound Hearts” was an unpublished story from the Hellraiser comic series. The idea of building a huge lament configuration came out to the first story that I pitched to Daniel G. Chichester at Marvel when I was hooking up with those guys and pitching stories. The original thought I had was that you can actually create a lament configuration out of bodies. You guys know that game Twister? So this was the rather complex idea I had, by building body on top of body. This was one way. The lament configuration can take many forms. This thing just came to me and eventually came into this idea of a huge, ginormous lament configuration.
DANHAUSER: And in that story, and I guess that may answer my question if it was originally meant for comics, the sex of the main character is ambiguous…
VINCE: Yes! That was me having a little bit of fun there and It’s up to the reader to make their own [conclusion]. Prior to writing Mister B. Gone (Clive’s book) where he just tramples down the 4th wall (it sounds like a criticism, but it’s not a criticism at all.) He plays with the 4th wall and I thought it’s kind of cool. The writer writes the story and you lay things out in front of your audience and your reader all of whom are going to approach your story with their own preconceptions, prejudice, ideas. That’s part of the joy of writing and is something that can be explored a little bit more and some of my future work, possibly. Part of the magic and the enjoyment is that when you write a story every reader will read a slightly different story. The words on the page stay the same, but each individual is bringing their own luggage to that story and therefore they’re going to take something different away from it.
LEITAO: Exactly. And each person in their mind’s eye [are] envisioning something completely different.
DANHAUSER: Yeah.
LEITAO: That’s actually a good point. About that thing where there would be like bodies creating a lament configuration. I guess that you guys remember that show that was touring the world for a while called puppetry of the penis.
VINCE: I’ve never seen it. I’ve heard about it.
LEITAO: I was just going to say that those guys were really lucky. They didn’t open any doors while they were doing it.
VINCE:  [Laughter]

LEITAO: That was actually a very off-beat show, a very funny show. So, any other questions Ryan?
DANHAUSER: Ben Rush says “of course, there’s the hook story”.
VINCE: Oh yes. We didn’t tell the hook story, (Laughter) which I’ve written about in probably all the conventions. This is going back to Hellraiser II, of course. It refers to the fact that the Chattering Cenobite is pinned to one of the spinning torture pillars by the tentacles that fly out of Channard. In the filming of it you may wonder ”How do you do that?” Well, you stand there in front of the spinning pillar, you have a tentacle in your hand, you slam it into your chest to show that this thing has actually just hit you on the chest and you’re grasping to pull it out. Stood there, did that. From on the top of the spinning pillar there was like a 12 inch piece of wood and from that there was hanging a chain and from that there was a 12 inch rusty hook. In the filming of it what happened was it swang round, I opened my mouth and it went right up into the roof of my mouth.
DANHAUSER: Oh oh!
VINCE: oh yeah!
DANHAUSER: Past the chattering teeth and right into your…?
VINCE: I suppose it went about quarter of an inch into the roof of my mouth. So obviously I had to have tetanus shots and so on. And of course the real frustration on the set and everybody was the fact that the camera man had panned up too early, because they very kindly showed me the rushes the following day.
LEITAO: through your soft palate and it’s like, oh God…
VINCE: Yeah. Yeah. And why we can’t use it in the movie …this is not a criticism of the camera man, because he was doing exactly what he’d been told to do as part of what was supposed to be the original death scene, he was supposed to be panning up, but you can see the hook fly past my face.
DANHAUSER: That would give you a new sympathy to fish.
VINCE: It did. It seriously, seriously did. I got very sensitive about that. It was very painful, It’s just horrible. I just wanted to walk along canals and push fishermen in.
LEITAO: I just remembered…I forgot to cover this little story that you wrote, which I was unable to find. It was called The Beast in Beauty.
VINCE: Beast in Beauty appeared in Fear. It was inspired by a painting by John Bolton. This has always been one of my things and this is where I seek a lot of inspiration. I’ve always been interested in visual media in the arts, graphics design and so on. John had this picture lying around his studio and I thought it was really cool. What it shows is a woman lying in a red dress at the foot of the tree and then peering round the tree is a satyr mor faun; half goat, half human with little ears. He’s just peering around the tree at the maiden who was obviously asleep in her red dress. It did inspire me to write a short story. John and I discussed doing a whole series of short stories at one stage, but it didn’t quite come off. What I’m hoping to do is to get this published fairly soon. You’ll notice that we’ve been talking about late 1980s, 90s and that’s because I left acting and writing and took off (in inverted commas), a “proper job” …which I left yesterday. After over 16 years, working in databases and so on. I am returning to writing, planning a book of short stories at the moment…
LEITAO: You guys heard it here first. Vince returning to the world of writing.
VINCE: Yes, as Nicholas Vince rather than Nicholas Burman-Vince. Nicholas Burman-Vince is my official married name, but I would probably carry on working under Nicholas Vince as the professional name. So the aim is to have my first collection of short stories out on Kindle in summer of this year. This is all kind of new and I’ll be doing all my own publishing and etcetera. But what are the things and I hope to do is to get this up and free, The Beast in Beauty.
DANHAUSER: Do we know the title of the collection? So people can look out for it…
: The title of the collection is “What Monsters Do.” I’m sure you guys, you’ve got a weekly podcast and the guys who are listening to this can find me on Facebook or find me on Twitter.
LEITAO: Yeah, we will add back to the show notes, if that’s okay.
VINCE: Yes, absolutely. I’d be really interested getting the Beast in Beauty out there again. I’d love to read people’s feelings and feedback.
LEITAO: Yeah. I’d love to read it because I only know the title and in what magazine it came out. And then John Bolton, I understand why he would inspire because he’s just such a wonderful artist. I have 2 originals from John Bolton from the hellraiser stories.
VINCE: Oh, really? Which ones do you have?
LEITAO: The one where there’s this Cenobite, this huge Cenobite that has several faces all through his body…
VINCE: That will be “Demons to some?”
LEITAO: I think so.
VINCE: Yeah. This is the one that I wrote and modeled for.
DANHAUSER and LEITAO: Oh Wow.
VINCE: As did Barbie. In fact that rather good looking semi naked man… That’s me. That’s 20 odd years ago. Barbie and I, we modeled it. I’ve got some photographs that John took. Let’s see if we can get those up on the website for you guys. I’ll put them up on my Facebook page, so you guys can link to it. as I’ve got photographs with me and Barbie, which if we get the comic pages up as well, you can see. I’m going to try and get hold of John Bolton’s to see if he’s cool with me putting the actual painting of The Beast in Beauty up, because obviously it’s his copyright rather than mine. But certainly in terms of the story, my aim is to get that out on the Kindle for free, cause it’s a good story. I was pleased with that. It’s exciting times for me because I’ve already started writing the collection of short stories quite what they’re going to be. How many of them need to be, can’t tell you yet. They don’t exist yet. But sometime in the summer that collection could be out.
LEITAO: I have to ask this when it comes out, will you be willing to be interviewed by us again? That would be wonderful.
VINCE: Oh yes, absolutely. If you want to talk to me again…as you can tell now we are approaching an hour and a half. I’m quite happy to talk!
DANHAUSER: We have that problem too.
LEITAO: If it’s still okay for you to be talking to us it’s fine. I mean if you have any other things to do, we understand. But one thing, which is the other piece of John Bolton art that I have is from the Canons of Pain, the first story from the first Hellraiser comic book, the one that takes place in the Crusades. And now that you’ve mentioned you’ve modeled for the other story, did you do any modeling for this one?
VINCE: Not as far as I remember, I don’t think so. The other big thing that I did was for Dave McKean for Cages.

LEITAO: Ah, wonderful.
VINCE: Yeah, I play the lead. Dave would turn up once a month at my (then) flat in Streatham High Road in South London to take photographs and talk to me through the script. It was just so much fun! He’s such a lovely guy and does some really, really interesting things. We’d have a cup of tea and then we just spent half an hour taking photographs, which was really cool, really cool thing to do.
LEITAO: Yeah, Cages is a wonderful, wonderful piece of work. I have a huge trade edition. It’s just beautiful, it’s like dreaming reading a comic book.
VINCE: A hugely talented man. We also do the short story videos for him as well. I think it’s in the music video for him down his house in Kent. He’s gone on to do some really interesting stuff in terms of film work and documentary and so on.
LEITAO: Oh well, he did Mirrormask. That’s a wonderful movie.
DANHAUSER: Oh yeah, the Jim Henson company movie
LEITAO: Amazing computer generated. And it’s like his drawings coming to life. It’s Miramax. So “What Monsters Do,” that’s where we can look forward to?
VINCE: Yes. It’s too early to tell you what it’s going to be about and what the stories are going to be about. There would be monsters of some form or another, that much I promise. Yeah, that’s probably as much as I can say about cause most of them are not written yet. I left work after 16 years yesterday so I could concentrate on this. I have an awful lot of support and encouragement from all my friends and family to go off and do this for a while.
LEITAO: All the fans are going to be wishing you all the success like we do. We wish you all the success for this because it’s just such a nice little stories that you wrote over the years. Just a testament to the quality of work that we can expect from “What Monsters Do.”
VINCE: Thank you. Thank you very much indeed. Well I hope you guys really enjoy. It’d probably take me a while, a month or so to get The Beast in Beauty sorted out. I will have a chat with John and see if he’s happy with it, If we can probably just get the story out rather than the picture. We’ll have to see how this can work somehow. I’ll get this up and available for you guys.

LEITAO: All right. So Ryan, do you have any other questions that you’d like to ask?
DANHAUSER: The other one from Ben Rush, he said “and being sung to by Anne,” but I don’t know if he just means what we already talked about…
VINCE: No, this is something different. I think these are questions that I put as teases them in one of the articles that I wrote about my career ‘cause there were stories I didn’t get around to writing about. When in Nightbreed I not only played Kinski, I played the white berserker (got four berserkers, one of which is kind of albino) and I was in the costume. When there were flames on stage, a stunt man was in the costume I should point out. I just remember, there’s the bit where the hand comes up and tries to grab her ankle as she’s coming down the corridor… 

DANHAUSER: through the grid In the floor. VINCE: This was on the fantastic set in Pinewood that Anne referred to. And I just remember being at the top of some scaffolding underneath, doing this thing of shoving the hand up. And all I was wearing was the glove with the claw on, the forearm that you see. I don’t think I had the head on. And I just remember between shots that she suddenly knelt down and took my gloved hand and very tenderly in hers and just, she just sang: “You made me love you. I didn’t wanna do it, I didn’t wanna do it… “
LEITAO: That is adorable. I’m just looking at the Nightbreed Chronicles book, which features the photos of Murray Close and there is the white a Berserker. It’s actually the big picture in the Berserker section is the white Berserker. And there is a picture in the making of the film book, which has Clive with a big cigar in his mouth putting some slime on your hands through the grading. So I’ll make sure to put that picture on the shownotes: So I did not know that, that you were one of the Berserkers. That’s fantastic.

VINCE: Yeah, I think, I can’t remember. I don’t think I’m credited for that one. 
LEITAO: Any, any other questions, Ryan?
DANHAUSER: No, I, well I think that the rest of them have been covered already. Well thank you so much for coming on. This was a lot of fun.
VINCE: Oh, this is my pleasure guys. Thank you so much for setting up the podcast. It’s been a real pleasure listening to Anne and Simon talking about the movies and so on, in the last couple of podcasts, I haven’t got your other podcasts yet.
LEITAO: They can drag on a little bit.
DANHAUSER: Some of them are a little long.
VINCE: Well, well I’m not going to cast stones ‘cause we’ve been talking for an hour and a half, me Yattering on as usual. No guys, thank you very much indeed. Thank you.
LEITAO: We appreciate the time and the opportunity to get to talk to someone which we’ve admired and all these movies for so long. Well thank you very much.
VINCE: Well, hopefully we’ll get to meet someday at a convention.
DANHAUSER: Yeah, definitely.
LEITAO: Maybe Cabal Cut screenings will take place in the UK. I’m just literally going to London if it goes to London…
VINCE: This is something that Russell and I had to talk about and see what we can do about getting screenings together. And this is one of the worries is sort of visiting him in a couple of weeks time. if there’s anything I can do to help support this happening. Definitely a London screening is what everyone is hoping to do. So, Cool!
LEITAO: We hope to catch you again when your kindle book comes out.
VINCE: Thank you very much indeed. Okay guys. Thank you. Take care. Bye. All the best.